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#1800651 - 04/02/13 08:03 PM Re: Did you know... HappyGilmore
Sound Tactic Offline
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Originally Posted By: HappyO'Gilmore
maybe we can use these 300+ million guns to shoot down the drones that are flying overhead recording our conversations warrantlessly!

alternatively...

these are the drones you're looking for!


How moderate of you Happy. You must be registered Independent. laugh
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#1800652 - 04/02/13 08:04 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Somewhere in the middle
Great idea! laugh
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#1800822 - 04/03/13 02:21 PM Re: Did you know... Sound Tactic
thomasj Offline
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Originally Posted By: Red Herring


A rifle is also terrible for birds or upland game. Many hunting guns come in versions that the left has been calling "assault rifles". For example the Bushman .223 used in the CT massacre is a .223 that was originally designed for hunting purposes. Since the gun is not semiautomatic it is essentially the exact same thing but looks slightly different (no wood stock, different magazine to feed the gun, etc.).



A rifle is not terrible for upland game and birds, it is not used to hunt that type of game. It would be like using pliers to drive a nail, it's not the right tool for the job and no one who has ever hunted birds would even suggest it.

The gun used in the school shooting was a Bushmaster, not a Bushman and it most definately is a semi-automatic assault weapon, not a hunting gun. While the .223 caliber can be used in hunting, most people who hunt would not be using the Bushmaster rifle to hunt with, they would chose a more accurate and practical rifle in that caliber.


Last week in our community a retired police officer gunned down his estranged wife in while she was at work in a supermarket. She had a PFA against him, they had taken his guns, yet he somehow found a way to obtain a 12 gauge shotgun which he used to kill his pets and then end her life as well as his. If he had not been able to get the gun, I am sure he would have used a knife or his bare hands.
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#1800824 - 04/03/13 02:30 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
RH - back in the old days when I registered to vote in LA, you only had 2 choices - D or R. Not knowing any better, I selected D. We had closed primaries in those days, so you could only vote your party's candidates. At some point i realized i needed to get from the D category, and changed my registration to R - there was still only a D or R option then. We moved to open primary about 20 years ago, at some point I and O(ther) became options, but none of that really matters any more with open primary systems.
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#1800826 - 04/03/13 02:33 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Somewhere in the middle
or his car, or poison, or craftman hammer, or a chainsaw, or.....

My point is it is not (insert whatever) that kill, it is people who kill.
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#1801256 - 04/03/13 11:08 PM Re: Did you know... Sound Tactic
buggs Offline
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Originally Posted By: Red Herring
If this is not the case Buggs please let me know, because it seems like you think only some rights guaranteed by the constitution should be protected.

As I said above, some people try to read too much into my posts or twist them into something they are not. It's not a riddle, it's just something to think about.

Here's my opinions.

1. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate to say the Second Amendment was to protect us from our government. That was certainly part of it, but it was also to protect the government from being overthrown or from foreign attacks.

2. I don't own a gun. I had a BB gun when I was a kid. I've hever shot anything larger than a .22. I don't want or need one.

3. I don't have any problems with people owning weapons for hunting, target shooting, self-defense, etc. I don't even have problems with people owning handguns. But I honestly fail to understand the need for people to have unrestricted access to military style weapons that are used by law enforcement or the military.

4. I understand that guns don't kill people, people kill people. But cars don't kill people either and you have to get a license to drive one and own one. What's the big deal?

P.S. It's buggs with a small "b," not a capital "B." wink

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#1801265 - 04/04/13 01:17 AM Re: Did you know... buggs
Sound Tactic Offline
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Quote:
I'm not sure it is entirely accurate to say the Second Amendment was to protect us from our government. That was certainly part of it, but it was also to protect the government from being overthrown or from foreign attacks.


There were two advantages to it. But the right to arms was to defend yourself from the government. The second was a bi-product of the first. If you don't believe me check the federalist papers and articles of confederation. No one even debates this.

Quote:
I don't own a gun. I had a BB gun when I was a kid. I've hever shot anything larger than a .22. I don't want or need one.


ok

Quote:
But I honestly fail to understand the need for people to have unrestricted access to military style weapons that are used by law enforcement or the military.


You differentiate between hunting, self defense and unrestricted free access to military style weapons. There is about 10 miles of grey area in between those listed. The constitution allows us to have the right to bear arms to protect us from the government. So we cannot have magazine sizes larger than 8? What some politicians are proposing seems to be on the extreme end of the spectrum (IE extremely limiting of the right).


Quote:
I understand that guns don't kill people, people kill people. But cars don't kill people either and you have to get a license to drive one and own one. What's the big deal?


I agree, just like you need a license for what you call in number 3 as unrestricted access to military style weapons. Baseball can be used to kill someone too, perhaps we should all stand in line for a license for one of those as well.

Quote:
P.S. It's buggs with a small "b," not a capital "B."


oh well ok. My apologies. I thought after you vow never to return to BOL for 3 times that people are permitted to misspell your name ever now and then.

From our conversations 6 years ago I really thought you were a unbiased advocate of the rights protected by the constitution. You told me you were some kind of moderate. I would at least expect a moderate to be consistent on their issues.
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#1801266 - 04/04/13 01:22 AM Re: Did you know... buggs
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When the constitution was written it was done so to unify the states in order to create a military and military fund. Arming citizens gave the citizens guns as well. Yes this helped protect the country from other governments but it also

Originally Posted By: Hamilton
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.


created a Militia to secure a free state. That meant the people were to keep themselves free and the Militia is not the same as the military being created.

Now, lets analyze "shall not be infringed". Any limitation on the right to bear arms is an infringement on that right.
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#1801267 - 04/04/13 01:28 AM Re: Did you know... buggs
Sound Tactic Offline
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Quote:
A rifle is not terrible for upland game and birds


I guess that depends on your definition of terrible. I think it is a pretty terrible choice.

Quote:
The gun used in the school shooting was a Bushmaster, not a Bushman


My apologies I mistyped.

Quote:
it most definately is a semi-automatic assault weapon


You just used a definition that does not exist. Many people who oppose gun rights use this definition but they really assign attributes to guns they claim to be assault that are widely used and common in guns, and even toys.

Quote:
hile the .223 caliber can be used in hunting, most people who hunt would not be using the Bushmaster rifle to hunt with


Many subsistence lifestyle people use exactly this type of weapon. It packs a decent punch and not having to chamber a cartridge is a big advantage especially if you do not want the animal to run and risk losing it. Yes, it is accurate at a shorter range but it is still 1) good for hunting and 2) used by some hunters where the attributes of the gun permit it. While I agree most people would not use this, it is still a hunting rifle, because it is legal for hunting in some locals. Many people can agree on a definition of hunting weapon. Most people cannot agree on any definition of assault rifle (IE none exists). A .223 is a .223. A shorter barrel, a synthetic stock and military looking grips can be found in weapons sold for hunting just like for your definition of assault rifle. Just because something is semi-automatic does not make it an assault weapon. Because if that were true you would need to ban Nerf guns, and my duck gun.

Last edited by Red Herring; 04/04/13 01:36 AM.
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#1801269 - 04/04/13 01:41 AM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Originally Posted By: Petedog
3. I don't have any problems with people owning weapons for hunting, target shooting, self-defense, etc. I don't even have problems with people owning handguns. But I honestly fail to understand the need for people to have unrestricted access to military style weapons that are used by law enforcement or the military.

Access to 'military style weapons' (full-auto) has been regulated heavily since 1936. Also, the military still uses pump shotguns (M590A1) and bolt action rifles (M24). These are very common firearms used by the public for hunting and target shooting. If we accepted 'military style weapons' as being prohibited, then these would be outlawed. I believe you meant to refer to semi-auto rifles that only LOOK like their full-auto counterparts used by the military.

Originally Posted By: Petedog
4. I understand that guns don't kill people, people kill people. But cars don't kill people either and you have to get a license to drive one and own one. What's the big deal?

Well, there is a big difference between a Right (to keep & bear arms) and a privilege (to drive a car on public roads). Not to mention that you don't need a license to purchase a car, or to even drive one on private property.

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#1801271 - 04/04/13 02:17 AM Re: Did you know... buggs
buggs Offline
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Did you ever see a rainbow?

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#1801293 - 04/04/13 12:44 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
RR Joker Offline
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8 round limit? crazy One of my rifles and my P22 both hold 10. Seriously, eight?? crazy
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#1801347 - 04/04/13 02:15 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
Bimmer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Petedog
3. I don't have any problems with people owning weapons for hunting, target shooting, self-defense, etc. I don't even have problems with people owning handguns. But I honestly fail to understand the need for people to have unrestricted access to military style weapons that are used by law enforcement or the military.


People DO NOT have unrestricted access to weapons that are used by law enforcement or the military! The National Firearms Act, enacted in 1968 restricts the purchase of Short Barrel Rifles, Machines Guns, Short Barrel Shotguns, Sound Suppressors, and Destructive Devices, without the permission of the BATF, and a Tax stamp.

The background check and process to purchase an NFA firearm is currently taking 8-12 months to get approved.

Hardly "Unrestricted"!
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#1801369 - 04/04/13 02:37 PM Re: Did you know... Sound Tactic
thomasj Offline
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Originally Posted By: Red Herring
Quote:
A rifle is not terrible for upland game and birds


I guess that depends on your definition of terrible. I think it is a pretty terrible choice.

I dissagree that it is a terrible choice, it's not even a choice if you have ever actually hunted this type of game.

Quote:
it most definately is a semi-automatic assault weapon


Originally Posted By: Red Herring
You just used a definition that does not exist. Many people who oppose gun rights use this definition but they really assign attributes to guns they claim to be assault that are widely used and common in guns, and even toys.


The rifle is a semi-automatic, meaning that it rechambers a cartrige after each shot, that does not make it an assault weapon. It is equipeped with a shorter barrel and assault style grips that make it very impractical for hunting in most situations and illeagal for hunting in most states. There are some practical uses for that gun by law enforcement and the military and by people who like to go to the range and shoot for fun. Not all semi-automatic guns are assault weapons, your "Duck gun" is a semi-auto and I don't think anyone would say that it is an assault weapon (except for possibly a duck).

Just to be clear, I am very much for gun rights and don't feel that tougher gun laws will do anything to protect law abiding citizens. What hurts this cause though are uninformed people trying to build a case for gun rights when they really don't know much about guns. I think if someone wants to buy a Bushmaster and take it to the range and have a good time they should have that option, but to try to pass that weapon off as a hunting rifle just hurts the cause.
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#1801374 - 04/04/13 02:44 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Quote:
I dissagree that it is a terrible choice, it's not even a choice if you have ever actually hunted this type of game.


OK fair enough. I did not see where you were going there.

Quote:
It is equipeped with a shorter barrel and assault style grips that make it very impractical for hunting in most situations and illeagal for hunting in most states.


Not true. This actually makes it more viable and legal to hunt with in many states. However, because of the shorter barrel it has less long range accuracy.

Quote:
There are some practical uses for that gun by law enforcement and the military and by people who like to go to the range and shoot for fun.


There is the practical use that the constitution lets us own these to protect us from the government too.

Quote:
What hurts this cause though are uninformed people trying to build a case for gun rights when they really don't know much about guns.


Do you mean like Joe Biden, Barack Obama (who looks like he had never shot a gun before, Diane Fienstein and Dianne DeGette?

Oh wait those four people seem very uninformed and are trying to take away the guns.
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#1801385 - 04/04/13 02:56 PM Re: Did you know... Sound Tactic
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Quote:
There are some practical uses for that gun by law enforcement and the military and by people who like to go to the range and shoot for fun.


What is the practical use by law inforcement as these guns are less accurate that simular guns with different grips and a longer barrel?

I for one do not wish to see LE using these guns on the street. I would like them to have the most accurate guns avail.

If they choose to use them for hunting or target practice that would be their choice.
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#1801402 - 04/04/13 03:12 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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What i find interesting is the discussion of limiting the size of magazines to hold "less than X" bullets. What i recall reading is that in the Newtown shooting, he was changing magazines that still had over 50% of the remaining bullets unused.

Most competent users of firearms can exchange magazines in under 2 seconds. This appears to be nothing but a feel good law...
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#1801419 - 04/04/13 03:25 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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What's the matter with feeling good?

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#1801422 - 04/04/13 03:27 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Most laws make some folks feel good and other folks not so good.

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#1801428 - 04/04/13 03:35 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Originally Posted By: Petedog
Most laws make some folks feel good and other folks not so good.


We pay thousands of Federal employees a lot of money to make laws that actually solve problems. Lets try to make some of those types of laws first.
Last edited by Red Herring; 04/04/13 03:35 PM.
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#1801431 - 04/04/13 03:38 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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Just like I do not want someone who is uninformed and knows very little about firearms arguing that I should not be allowed to purchase one, I also do not want someone who knows very little about firearms arguing for my right to purchase one. Both individuals tend to rattle on and the more they talk the more that they reveal that they know very little about the actual subject. Those people should limit their commentary to the constitutional issues at play and not try to support their argument with technical issues like calling a Bushmaster a hunting rifle or asserting that magazine restrictions or placing further restrictions on ownership will do anything to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
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#1801440 - 04/04/13 03:46 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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The way they write laws there is a better chance that they will solve unemployement and other social problems than gun violance.

See dodd/frank
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#1801443 - 04/04/13 03:47 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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1) Bushmaster makes hunting rifles.

2) The gun used in the murders is legal to hunt with in certain locals. I have never hunted with a .223. I tend to go for a bullet with more stopping power for big game. However, it certainly can be used for hunting. It is legal to hunt with in many locals and may even be a viable choice, particularly for people who do not want the animal to run, or even suffer in the event of an errant shot.

So, I do not know if you are referring to me (quite possibly) or someone else you saw commenting on the gun on TV. But anyone who would claim this firearm would not be a hunting weapon would be wrong for the reasons listed above. Anyone who would claim the weapon is a hunting weapon is correct (for the same reasons).

http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/hunting.asp
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#1801446 - 04/04/13 03:51 PM Re: Did you know... thomasj
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Well said ThomasJ! I totally agree.

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#1801448 - 04/04/13 03:53 PM Re: Did you know... buggs
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To the best of my knowledge, the only states that do not allow semi-automatic hunting of some kind are California, Pennsylvania and Washington.

I have just read this but have never hunted in any of those states. That accounts for 6%. Where I live certain deer seasons do allow you to use semi-auto firearms but not all of them. There are at least 6 different deer seasons here not counting other types of big game or deer species.
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